Germany will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust

Some news from Germany:

Out of the 1,300 Germans who took part in the representative survey, 27% agreed with a range of anti-Semitic statements and stereotypes about Jewish people.

Some 41% said they agreed with the statement that “Jews talk about the Holocaust too much.” The same portion said they believed “Jews are more loyal to Israel than to Germany.”

Over 20% of respondents said they agreed that Jewish people have “too much power” over the economy, international financial markets and the media. Another 22% agreed that “people hate Jews due to the way they behave.”

Anti-Semitism is also growing among the wealthy and well-educated, according to the study.

The WJC found that 18% of “elites” — respondents with at least one university degree who make at least €100,000 ($111,300) per year — agreed with anti-Semitic sentiments.

Within that group, over a quarter said they believed Jewish people have “too much power over world politics” and the economy.

Personally I don’t believe it. Antisemitism can’t be rife in Germany if they’re prosecuting 93-year old former SS guards in high-profile trials.

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26 thoughts on “Germany will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust

  1. I was in Münster (an ancient university city in North West Germany) about 2 years ago, visiting my friend Marcus (a physics professor who lived in the city)

    We were just finishing lunch in a cafe outside the historic city hall when a protest by a group of “New Germans” took place in support of the Palestinians.

    A woman of middle Eastern origin took to a megaphone and what followed was a horrific tirade of anti-semitic abuse against both Israel and the jews, while the local police just stood by and watched, their only purpose being to prevent the demonstration from being interrupted by “neo nazi elements”.

    Even my liberal, university educated friend was shocked to the very core that such an event could take place under the eyes of the police without arrests, “of course, if they had been ethnic Germans…” was about as far as he ever got to expressing the reality of the situation.

  2. Go get the original survey. Jews do about as badly as Christians, atheists, and so on. The only religious grouping that does poorly is the religion we all know and love.

    The anti-semitism you see is likely driven about 3/4 by our new Germans and their left-wing friends, 1/4 by failed pond scum who yearn for the good old days.

    Was very nice to see the survey is 6:1 in favour of Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state.

    A slender majority say Germany should stop taking Muslim immigrants.

  3. That heading is pretty offensive and isn’t supported by what follows.

    Apart from the “New Germans” that John Galt mentions, there are the Turkish Gastarbeiter and their children and, by now, grandchildren who in some cases have atavistic leanings.

    BiG’s ‘failed pond scum’ is over simplistic. There’s no arguing with the small proportion he suggests but those in the East who grew up in the GDR were not innoculated against anti-semitism as their western counterparts were.

    There, the accepted teaching was that Nazism and all that went with it was a characteristic of the capitalist neighbour and not a feature of the socialist workers’ state. It follows from that that stereotyping, racism and antisemitism which were largely eradicated from West Germany could remain latent and unchallenged in a racially much more homogenous East.

  4. That heading is pretty offensive

    It’s an adaptation of “Europeans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust” in relation to their loss of moral standing.

  5. TMB are you blaming it on folks brought up in the GDR, after all USSR was highly anti-Semitic

  6. @TMB

    “Apart from the “New Germans” that John Galt mentions, there are the Turkish Gastarbeiter”

    “those in the East who grew up in the GDR were not innoculated against anti-semitism”

    In other words, Tim tells us how Germany is fu**ed, and you offer some insight into why Germany is fu**ed.

    @Wisent
    “after all USSR was highly anti-Semitic”

    USSR/Russia was/is highly anti-everyone. Stoking ethnic divisions was/is a very important tool to ensure the society was/is sufficiently low-trust that the gangsters at the top can suppress any political opposition through violence. Maybe, just maybe, the ruling classes elsewhere are trying to adopt the model…

  7. @Wisent
    The official GDR narrative was all-pervasive and it would have been remarkable for its citizens to feel complicit either for themselves or on behalf of their parents for a past of which the State had fully absolved them. On balance it’s not a question of blame and more a matter of conditioning.

    @Ivan

    My niggle with Tim is that his gift for imaginative and amusing headlines is inventive and clever but has perhaps tipped over into poor taste here.

    The institutionalised bad conscience of West Germans has had a salutory but corrosive effect on national identity which is why it has become mandatory for Germans to sublimate a sense of national identity within the EU.

    Sadly for the Germans and Germany the German hegemony over European Institutions means that they are as much The German Problem as at any time since 1871

  8. If you get ejected from various countries to a combined total of over a hundred times, you’ve got to start some sort of self-reflection and stop blaming everybody else for your inability to play well with others. People aren’t going to uncritically accept the blame upon their own heads forever. They aren’t going to always jump to your defense in a way that is one part virtue signalling, the other part submission to the current dominant group.

  9. There may be a positive feedback loop between the FakeJews like Soros and the ADL whose vicious witch-hunts generate ill-will toward the unassuming Sons and Daughters of Sarah and Abraham, on whose behalf these pogroms are supposedly enacted. Meantime, the paranoid bigot sector of the chattering class stoke resentment on both sides.

    Few dare speak plainly. But trust me, when the next round of us having to go full Corrie Ten Boom starts because the golem is in full rampage, it won’t be either the F.J.S or the P.B.s who need hiding.

  10. Sadly for the Germans and Germany the German hegemony over European Institutions means that they are as much The German Problem as at any time since 1871

    It’s essentially been the same problem since Bismarck. Maybe if Ferdinand Cohen-Blind had been a better shot in 1866, we wouldn’t be in this situation today, but we are where we are.

    If you get ejected from various countries to a combined total of over a hundred times, you’ve got to start some sort of self-reflection and stop blaming everybody else for your inability to play well with others.

    That’s a gross mischaracterisation of the problem worthy of Der Stürmer.

    The lack of their own homeland meant that the Jews were open to exploitation and abuse in every country that they’d managed to make something of a life for themselves. During earlier eras they were useful as a dodge around Christian usury laws and when Christian lords and kings had racked up substantial debts they just used good, old-fashioned tricks like “They killed Christ” or blood libel bollocks to whip up the local populace to justify expulsion and therefore effective repudiation of their debts. At which point the Jews fled abroad to some other welcoming autocrat who wanted to pull the same stunt.

    Roll on the more liberal era from the 1800’s onwards and they might have thought that things would get better for them, but no, despite them integrating with society as much as they were allowed to, they still end up being blamed for shit they haven’t done or that were done just by a group of Jewish extremists (such as the Spartacist uprising of 1919)

    The whole “It was da Jews” trope is getting a bit tired, surely?

  11. Your opinion seems to be based on there being some correlation between what government & the establishment do & what the electorate want. Why would you think that’s more true in Germany than any other country? (The exceptions being the US & UK where executives & establishment are mutually antagonistic. Although, even then, only on certain issues. )

  12. I have some Jewish friends and 3 years ago I was discussing this issue with the more open minded one. Simply stated, I said that the far left don’t like Jews due to Palestine and the fact that historically Jews have been very good at capitalism. The far right don’t like Jews due to what they see as the Jewish championing of migration (or race replacement) in to the west. Obviously our new arrivals from MENA don’t like Jews due to the fact they are Muslim. Oh and the centre ground is giving way in politics and may not exist for much longer. I told said friend that if I was Jewish these days I’d be petrified of the future. I’d also have to look long and hard at what sort of society I want for my future children/grandchildren bearing in mind they would be Jewish.

    I concluded with saying that if it was me I’d try to make an accommodation with the dissident right, as they could work with Jews provided a frank and honest conversation was had first. He seemed a very shocked – genuinely shocked – at the above conversation. What shocked me was that he was oblivious to the above goings on and I got the impression that a lot of Jewish society in the west is too.

    What I didn’t say to my friend is that anti-semitism is growing in the west, and it’s easy for people make others aware of what they call the JQ. All they need to do is to show that Barbara Spectre video and a few ‘fellow white people’ twitter memes. A shame and in my view totally avoidable – but it does require an open, honest and frank conversation without being shut down with charges of anti-semitism. If that conversation doesn’t happen then expect the figures in the above survey to increase.

  13. TMB;
    Had a random conversation with a German colleague probably about 30 years ago by now. God only knows how, but the subject of War Guilt cropped up. My colleague mentioned that for the younger generation (probably about early/mid-teens) at that point, the general unpleasantness some years earlier was merely something that happened to their grandparents. By now, that’ll be the great grandparents, that they’ve probably never met.

    Give it twenty years or so, when they will be moving into their forties, there’s a good chance that someone is going to get a nasty shock.

    Probably the French, so silver linings and all that.

  14. That’s a gross mischaracterisation of the problem worthy of Der Stürmer

    You don’t think that racial purity laws had anything to do with it?

  15. I concluded with saying that if it was me I’d try to make an accommodation with the dissident right, as they could work with Jews provided a frank and honest conversation was had first.

    I think so too, at least in the US. If American Jews keep voting for Democrats who call Donald Trump and his Jewish daughter white supremacists while praising the likes of Ilhan Omar, they’re in for a rough future.

  16. I do have a great deal of sympathy with Germans of my generation who grew up having nothing to do with the Holocaust, but being expected to carry the burden of the sins of their grandfathers, and having their noses rubbed in it at every turn, then watching guilt-ridden liberal politicians give away their birthright to Uncle Tariq Ataturk-Cobbley and all.

    On a personal level I’ve never had an issue with a Jewish person. Indeed, some have been very kind to me.

    Nevertheless, there are legitimate questions to be asked about the way in which members of the Jewish community /appear/ to have disproportionate representation and influence in the spheres of power in this modern world.

    It could be that there are perfectly good explanations to do with traditional family structure, self-discipline, genetic intelligence, hard work etc, but how do we know whether it’s this or something more sinister when we are so strongly discouraged from asking the questions and outright obstructed (and in Germany criminalised) by charges of anti-semitism if we attempt to propound any explanations?

    Frankly, I can’t blame anyone who is suspicious in these circumstances where free inquiry is stifled. The consequences of such suppression get ugly, time after time, both on the left-most and right-most fringes of political discourse.

  17. @TMB

    I’m afraid the “institutionalized bad conscience” is just a misnomer for institutionalized hypocrisy. My impression is that somewhat-but-not-quite-well-hidden underneath is the same kind of national resentment that shaped the political dynamics in Germany between WW1 and WW2, which is highly likely to end in a similar way, except maybe there won’t be any humans left when the dust settles this time. E.g. I have been observing visceral “everyday” anti-americanism, of the kind you would rather expect to find in Russia, too often to dismiss it as a glitch. Heiko Maas flying to Moscow to sign a pact on the 80th anniversary of Ribbentrop’s doing the same is pretty telling.

  18. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me
    Exodus 20:5

    So we’re well into the 3rd, maybe 4th generation since the war and the German plebs are still being shamed with a modern equivalent of war guilt in the sense of “a stain that cannot be removed”, despite the fact that the only connection with WW2 was at least a grandfather and more likely a great, grandfather.

    Yet the German political elite (who essentially kicked all of this off in the 1930’s), still haven’t learned those lessons and have simply replaced the military hegemony of the Wehrmacht with political and economic hegemony through it’s control of the European Union and the Euro.

    If I was French, I’d be a bit fucked off about now.

  19. What I didn’t say to my friend is that anti-semitism is growing in the west, and it’s easy for people make others aware of what they call the JQ. All they need to do is to show that Barbara Spectre video and a few ‘fellow white people’ twitter memes.

    I can’t argue that Jewish bitterness over their relatives being massacred in the 1940’s remains long lasting and subject to irrational fears and inflammatory rhetoric. Heck, if I was in their position, I’d be resentful too.

    The problem is by stirring anti-Semitic hatred, even if you post-rationalise it as Corbyn and his bunch do by saying “You are protesting against Israel, not the Jewish people”, you still end up starting down the same road as we went down last time (even if your end goal is not “a final solution to the Jewish Question”).

    I agree that anti-Semitism is rising, but it is not a feature of “the plebs”, the vast majority of whom probably couldn’t point out any Jewish person that they interact with in their daily lives. The rising anti-Semitism is largely caused by the political left and the importation and ghettoisation of Islamic immigrants from the Middle-East and North Africa for whom irrational hatred of the Jews is in their mothers milk.

    This is not some crisis of right-wing fascist or even populist origins, but almost exclusively a deliberately (and specifically) manufactured crisis of the socialist left.

  20. Do we actually have a deeper problem that varying ethnicities are poor at sharing nations?

    I.e. are Jews always gonna get the shit end of the stick because they are a minority in any places and humans are blood tribal?

    Do we wrongly separate Jews from the general human malaise of being unable to share territory except with something like kin?

    Who knows?

    Are there any happy answers to this?

  21. Are there any happy answers to this?

    Yes. The Jews have now reestablished their ancient homeland in Israel. Sucks if you’re Palestinian, obviously, but they were always going to get the shit end of the stick.

    The Jews now have a homeland to call their own, thus they have somewhere they can go that they cannot be threatened (internally at least) or from which they can be ousted.

  22. @ John Galt – “It’s essentially been the same problem since Bismarck”

    Bismarck on becoming Chancellor of the newly formed and united Germany granted citizenship to its Jewish population, a first for Europe, resulting in major social progress for German Jews whereby they rapidly climbed into the professions in this new-found European tolerance for them. Whereas say in Great Britain, Disraeli his nemesis had he not converted to Christianity would not have been able to hold office.

    Bismarck also through his tireless diplomatic efforts managed to keep a united Germany out of war. Regrettably, Disraeli outplayed him at the Congress of Berlin and amazingly and unexpectedly managed to break up the German/Russian/Austro-Hungarian Empire league, intentionally disenfranchise Balkan Serbs and pull off what is arguably the most effective political masterstroke in documented history.

    ” Later, Disraeli wrote, our great objective was to break up, and permanently prevent, the alliance of the three empires, and I maintain there never was a general diplomatic result more completely effected.129”

    Like Tolstoy, Bismarck knew fine well what this intrigue meant and what was to come and he predicted it with astonishing accuracy before his death.

    “Jena came twenty years after the death of Frederick the Great; the crash will come twenty years after my departure if things go on like this.

    One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans.”

    Bismarck was a good un and a great friend of the Jews.

  23. Jews behave the way that whites wish they could. Keeping their culture and traditions strong, always look after your in-group before you spend time on out-groups, help your fellow Jews get work, education and advancement and keep foreign elements out of your social circles. It’s a recipe for continuation and survival and they’ve done very well with it.

  24. That heading is pretty offensive
    It’s an adaptation of “Europeans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust”

    I can’t point to any authoritative source, but my recollection was that the original quote was “The Germans will never forgive us for the Holocaust”, uttered by a Jew. It’s a somber reflection on possible future relations between the Jews and the Germans, reflecting upon the sad fact that one is often more vicious to a person you have wronged, than to a person who has wronged you.

    @Matt
    If you get ejected from various countries to a combined total of over a hundred times, you’ve got to start some sort of self-reflection and stop blaming everybody else for your inability to play well with others.

    The Shia Arabs of of the Middle East will be delighted to learn that their Sunni neighbors’ penchant for murdering them is actually their own fault.
    The Alawite sect of the Levant will be delighted to learn that their Sunni and Shia neighbors’ penchant for murdering them is actually their own fault.
    The Ahmedi sect of Islam, whose members get their throats cut in Britain whenever they annoy a Shia or Sunni nighbor, will be delighted to learn that it’s actually their own fault.
    The Yazidi women … ok, I think I’ve made my point.

    On a less facetious note, your statement presumes that the individuals of the host nations have made a good-faith, prejudice-free effort to get along, and that the opinion of the group is the sum of individual experiences. This may be true to a certain extent over the last 50 years, but it was not true throughout history. The hatred of whole populations was more often due to an ideology which was imposed from a single source (e.g. Sunni hatred of Shia, Catholic prejudice towards Jews, etc).

    @John Galt

    despite them integrating with society as much as they were allowed to, they still end up being blamed for shit

    … and, ironically, having withdrawn to their own homeland, and the original societies now containing fewer Jews than ever before, the pattern remains unbroken.

    @Damian

    I concluded with saying that if it was me I’d try to make an accommodation with the dissident right, as they could work with Jews provided a frank and honest conversation was had first.

    That’s something I could agree with whole-heartedly, provided I knew exactly what you meant by “dissident right” and what you did not mean. If you mean someone like Tommy Robinson, then I agree. MillenialWoes? I’m not so sure. Of course, with their content being purged from the internet, it’s getting harder and harder to gauge their differences.

    @Ducky McDuckface

    … there’s a good chance that someone is going to get a nasty shock. Probably the French, so silver linings and all that.

    Aha! Racist!

    No, wait, sorry. What I meant to say was that the strongest argument against that ever happening is a demographic one. Not enough young men to send marching across the frontier. Unless it’ll be the New Sultanate (“Germany”) invading the Northern Algeria (“France”).

    @John Galt
    I agree that anti-Semitism is rising, but it is not a feature of “the plebs”,

    Agreed.

    @Itellyounothing

    Do we actually have a deeper problem that varying ethnicities are poor at sharing nations?

    The USA had no problem integrating various ethnicities (and religions) as long as it had confidence in its melting-pot ideology. You can also view Israel as an example, having successfully integrated immigrants from Russia, Morocco, Germany and Yemen. Each of these came with considerable cultural baggage, and a considerably different appearance.

  25. Jonathan, stop trying to merge your tribe with the Sunni/Shia situation. Nobody is buying that.

    Your statement is based on the presumption that a certain tribe (of which you almost certainly belong) is just blameless while the hosts have always been irrational. I think we can discount that based on probability alone. I chuckle thinking about how unlikely it is that… your adversaries have only been wrong all of this time. Highly unlikely.

    You are going to find that you increasingly have absolutely no ability to choose whether you prefer Robinson or Woes. Events are going to move on regardless and you will have to accept the results. Good luck.

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