Don’t be that guy

I bring to your attention this tweet from Iowahawk and two responses, one of which is mine:

On the one hand, you have this batshit insane idea pushed by deranged feminists that unwanted attention such as catcalling, suggestive remarks, or flirting constitutes sexual harassment or even assault, and that all such interactions should be eliminated from the workplace and greater society. If that were to happen, men and women would never get together.

On the other hand, you have this idea that middle-aged men ought to be trying it on with women half their age because a tiny minority of men in highly unusual circumstances manage to do so. In this post, Chateau Heartiste quotes one of his commenters thusly:

[A father] would be delighted with his mid-teens daughter marrying a proper 30-year old man.

Uh-huh. This is a major problem with the red-pilled, manosphere, PUA blogs: the authors may have some experience with women worth sharing, but they induce in their commenters delusions no less idiotic than those of their feminist counterparts.

It is well known that women, in general, like men who are a bit older. How much older? It depends, but not that much older. 18 year old girls like 24 year old men, 25 year old girls like 30 year old men, something like that. There are some exceptions: ageing rock stars, politicians, and other high-status individuals do okay with young women; teenage hookers seem happy to accept customers of any age; there are an abundance of emotionally-scarred girls with deep-rooted daddy issues attracted to men twice their age; and occasionally you come across a genuine relationship with a big age-gap that seems normal. And there’s nothing wrong with any of this.

But that doesn’t mean the average young girl you meet in a bar or on the street is interested in a bloke miles older than them. Sure, they might be interested in a particular guy who’s much older than them, but it is highly unlikely to be you. Whereas it is true that it’s a man’s right and prerogative to try it on with any woman he fancies, the flip side of that is a man really ought to know who’s in his league and who isn’t. That some men don’t ever figure this out is why the category “creep” exists. It gets overused for sure, particularly by women, but it also applies to deeply average guys in their 30s or 40s thinking they’re in with half a chance with the teenage intern. As Iowahawk says, best wait until you’re flirted at before you make a fool of yourself and get branded a creep. I saw a lot of this on Sakhalin, middle-aged men thinking every pretty young Russian girl found them desirable, leading to some excruciating advances which the women didn’t like very much. And a lot did what Carl Gustav warns of, i.e. they interpreted a girl being nice as flirting.

Of course, most men find much younger women attractive and desirable, but this is a big step away from the idea that they should therefore hit on them. Frankly, I don’t know who the hell would want a relationship with a much younger woman anyway, except for obvious physical reasons. I know women of 23 now, and I occasionally meet 18 year olds: they come across as annoying kids. Who the hell would want to hang around them? I’ve often suspected older guys who go for naive, immature women do so because their females peers can see right through them.

There’s a caveat in here, though. The age gap ceases to matter once a woman has passed 28 or 30 or so because she’s probably mature and experienced enough to know what she’s doing. Anyone who thinks a woman of 18 or 20 is mature enough to know what she’s doing in the company of a 40 year old man probably doesn’t know many 18 year old women. Perhaps in the past this was common, but I’d be interested to get the perspective from the women on what their marriages were like. The general rule of thumb, which I think is sensible, is the “half age plus seven” rule, e.g. 27 is the approximate lower limit for a 40 year old man, 22 for a 30 year old.

Exceptions abound in all of this of course, and I’m writing this post mainly to make the point that, while we all roll our eyes at feminists complaining about the natural attraction women have to older, powerful men the other side of the internet is filled with bro’d-up wannabe-alphas thinking young women are just waiting to be “gamed” by much older men. We should roll our eyes at them, too. Knowing your market and avoiding the creep label ought to be top priorities of any man entering middle-age with an intention of dating women.

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26 thoughts on “Don’t be that guy

  1. Met my future wife when I was 37 and she was nineteen went out for a meal and then never saw her for ten years whereby we became an item. The age difference was a problem to me more than her. Now I am 76 and she is 58 still have an excellent married life and the age difference is still my problem not hers. Go figure.

  2. Tim- Bang on. But blokes are always optimistic- and as you’ve noted: it’s in our genetic makeup to play long odds because the cost of offering congress has always been close to nil, but the return is high.

    That cost of offering is going up though, if even Aled bloody Jones has shown up in the latest trawl of sleb sex pests.

    Petepet- Suspect you are an outlier, but congrats on your upcoming 30th anniversary.

    ( Although, your relationship seems to start when she’s 29 and thus fitting in nicely with Tim’s ’28-30 is the age when age makes no difference’ point. )

  3. I think a women’s natural attractiveness to a male falls off a cliff at 35 which is the the average age of the end of their fertility period and their natural attractiveness to a male. So any older guys say 55 plus starting off a new relationship with a female over 35 is at least questionable and has a pretty slim chance of developing into anything lasting.

  4. “I think a women’s natural attractiveness to a male falls off a cliff at 35 . . . “

    Dissent. Sure, some do, but . . .

    I’m sixty. I have a number of friends who are 45-51 (I think – can’t exactly ask) whom I consider to be quite hot. None of them are eighteen-year-old-hot, certainly, but it would be folly to expect that in anyone but an eighteen-year-old. Plus, as my youngest child is a twenty-four-year-old woman, my brain has sort of stopped thinking of the under-thirty array of women as being sexually desirable.

    Of course, my standards could just be a lot lower than yours. 😉

  5. “Of course, my standards could just be a lot lower than yours”

    It’s not so much about standards, all I am saying is that if all things were equal and say my wife left me for whatever reason and I wanted to start up a new long term relationship, I wouldn’t court any of the women I know now and I would start the hunt with sexual chemistry as the number one search criteria. I would be looking in the mid twenties range as I find that age very attractive to me with sexual hormones, sensuous features and hour glass figure and we know that younger women find resourceful and high social status blokes very attractive to them. Why not spend the effort to find a compatible mate to capitalize on this mutual attraction plus if we wanted to have children then we could do that as well.

  6. “So any older guys say 55 plus starting off a new relationship with a female over 35 is at least questionable and has a pretty slim chance of developing into anything lasting.”

    Don’t agree with that. Firstly, women age better these days. I know plenty of 40-somethings in superb nick. Secondly, while that primal urge is down to reproduction, people are also looking for companionship. Many men over 55 don’t want or already have a family so the last thing they want is a woman who does.

  7. BTW I am highly sceptical of CH and all who sail in it. I suspect there’s a lot of fantasy in the comments.

    Talking of fantasies, the idea that a white American renaissance is going to be created by a bunch of guys who “pump and dump” women rather than settling down and marrying one is pretty delusional itself.

  8. “40-somethings in superb nick”

    But for how much longer?

    Each to their own, for me to put the effort into a relationship it would have to be a young lady and having another child with her would probably appeal to me.

  9. I’ve pretty much reached the point of giving up on dating and ever getting married.

    A decade surrounded by ultra-subservient Geishas taking its toll? 😉

  10. ‘A decade surrounded by ultra-subservient Geishas taking its toll?’

    Hah, I wish!

    The sad truth is I’ve been single the whole time I have been here.

  11. The Japanese have given up on sex haven’t they? Not sure if being a Gaijin makes that even worse or a little better.

  12. bobby b
    ‘Plus, as my youngest child is a twenty-four-year-old woman, my brain has sort of stopped thinking of the under-thirty array of women as being sexually desirable.’

    In my case, eldest child, but the point is true in my case too. Skews your view.

    If there were a next time for whatever reason, I would not be looking for more kids. Age has got to me and 3 are enough (I am delighted with them, love them dearly, enjoy them enormously and hope they will put up with me as I age).

    Mutual attraction and sex, amiable companionship with a sense of humour (too many women I know seem to have had it cut out), similar energy level, at least some interests (but not all) in common and a healthy respect for the other person would be key. Economic self-sufficiency would be nice but probably not a deal-breaker.

    Having found myself attracted to more than one over 60 (not to say the 40s aren’t nice and a good place to look), I’m not sure where this leaves me.

    Disclaimer: despite the nick I am not 55 any more (cough, cough).

  13. I’d add this rider to Tim’s post, namely that many women are naturally flirtatious and an older man may be thought a safe flirtee who will accept and enjoy a measure of archness which could risk being misinterpreted by a younger man.

    This works both ways, of course, and an older chap can get away with things that might, from a younger man, be seen as preparing a manoeuvre.

    These are natural and enjoyable aspects of the interplay of the sexes.

  14. I’d add this rider to Tim’s post, namely that many women are naturally flirtatious and an older man may be thought a safe flirtee who will accept and enjoy a measure of archness which could risk being misinterpreted by a younger man.

    I hadn’t thought of that, but you are quite correct.

  15. The sad truth is I’ve been single the whole time I have been here.

    Aw. 🙁

    A friend of mine did quite well in Yokohama, but not until he found a bar where a load of air stewardesses go and was full of expats. He hooked up with a few Japanese girls but mainly Filipinas and some dodgy “hostesses” that he’d meet between shifts. But he’s the kind of guy who is pretty good at picking up girls in bars, but I should add that while they are good-looking they are pretty low-grade and he’s about as interested in meeting a girl suitable for a relationship as I am in bee-keeping. He said the Japanese girls were looking to practice their English, at least initially. Oh, and he got a call from a rather distressed American guy one night who said he’d found his number in his fiancee’s phone. Turned out it was one of the Filipinas, who wasn’t as committed to the upcoming marriage as perhaps she ought to have been!

    Then again, I know a guy from Pembroke who went to teach English in Japan in the early 00s and married a Japanese girl. As far as I know, they’re still together.

  16. I suspect there’s a lot of fantasy in the comments.

    Talking of fantasies, the idea that a white American renaissance is going to be created by a bunch of guys who “pump and dump” women rather than settling down and marrying one is pretty delusional itself.

    Agreed.

  17. Petepet- Suspect you are an outlier, but congrats on your upcoming 30th anniversary.

    Seconded!

  18. Pm & TN

    I subscribe. Younger ladies feel safe with me and free to flirt. Grrr.

    It’s fun even if it’s going nowhere.

  19. The downside for a male gaijin going out with a Japanese girl is that he learns what I believe is called pillow Japanese which gives rise to mirth and hilarity so, looking on the bright side, Andy is spared that indignity.

  20. “Economic self-sufficiency would be nice but probably not a deal-breaker.”

    I reckon that I would consider a trade off in this aspect, I don’t think the natural balance of young on old would work without it and it would be a deal-breaker for them if you didn’t. Nothing wrong with flaunting your wealth to attract younger females and yes you cant take it with you. Carefully select your new bachelor pad with your target in mid, wine and dine them in the best restaurants, take them to black tie events, buy them nice gifts, take them to exotic getaways, enjoy the chase and don’t be in a hurry is all a necessary part of the courting process in successfully attracting a younger mate.

    “There are a number of mechanical devices which increase sexual arousal, particularly in women. Chief among these is the Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible.” PJ O’Rourke

    Effect of manipulated prestige-car ownership on both sex attractiveness ratings.

    Previous studies have shown that male attractiveness can be enhanced by manipulation of status through, for example, the medium of costume. The present study experimentally manipulated status by seating the same target model (male and female matched for attractiveness) expressing identical facial expressions and posture in either a ‘high status’ (Silver Bentley Continental GT) or a ‘neutral status’ (Red Ford Fiesta ST) motor-car. A between-subjects design was used whereby the above photographic images were presented to male and female participants for attractiveness rating. Results showed that the male target model was rated as significantly more attractive on a rating scale of 1-10 when presented to female participants in the high compared to the neutral status context. Males were not influenced by status manipulation, as there was no significant difference between attractiveness ratings for the female seated in the high compared to the neutral condition. It would appear that despite a noticeable increase in female ownership of prestige/luxury cars over recent years males, unlike females remain oblivious to such cues in matters pertaining to opposite-sex attraction. These findings support the results of previous status enhancement of attractiveness studies especially those espousing sex differences in mate preferences are due to sex-specific adaptations.

    Manipulated luxury-apartment ownership enhances opposite-sex attraction in females but not males

    Manipulated prestige car ownership has been shown previously to enhance male attractiveness. In the current study the illusion of status-linked property ownership was achieved by presenting a target male and female (matched for attractiveness) adopting a casual posture standing in either a ‘high status’ (luxury apartment) or a ‘neutral status’ (standard apartment) context. A between-subjects design was used with the photographic stimuli presented amongst other masking stimuli and rated for attractiveness by opposite-sex university undergraduate participants (N = 102) on a scale of 1–10. The male model was rated significantly more attractive when presented to females in the high status compared to the neutral status context and was also adjudged to be significantly more attractive than the female target superimposed on an identical background. There was no significant difference in the female target models attractiveness ratings given by males across the two contexts. These results were obtained despite no sex-differences being found when separate participants were asked to rate the plausibility of each target model owning or renting the luxury property they were depicted in. These findings add to a growing body of work high-lighting the importance of contextual, evolutionarily relevant status cues in male attractiveness judgements.

  21. Andy in Japan on November 20, 2017 at 1:59 pm said: “I’ve pretty much reached the point of giving up on dating and ever getting married.”

    FWIW, having been single for twenty-eight years, married for twenty-plus, and divorced for eight, I can tell you that, while being married has its recommendations, so does being single, and the benefits of singledom are every bit as good and worthwhile as those of married life.

    In other words, there’s no loss in not being in one state, so long as you are in the other, if that makes any sense. The only thing to avoid is being in both at the same time.

  22. Couple of issues with the half your age bit – at 69 I still have 4 years of school fees left and have to avoid her work functions (she looks younger than she is which is an advantage in IT)

    The other bit about people assuming she is your daughter is something I am used to after 33 years

  23. In other words, there’s no loss in not being in one state, so long as you are in the other, if that makes any sense.

    It does. Sound advice, that.

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