Comments on: Putin’s Remarks

By: Werner

Werner — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:45:48 +0000

This is what I appreciate about Europeans , they discuss the continuity of history e.g. Mongols raped Russians raped Germans raped the English – unlike the Irish mongrels of the US who fixate on very small aspects of history .

By: Doug Eberspacher

Doug Eberspacher — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:30:52 +0000

The Russians have had to endure communism for 80 years. No doubt Americans would be very different had it been imposed upon them and they don’t know how close it came to be.

By: Doug Eberspacher

Doug Eberspacher — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:28:52 +0000

The Germans didn’t harm anyone that wasn’t out to harm them. The had to spread out and take on trhe enemy, because they were surrounded by enemies and wouldn’t have lasted 6 months had they stayed within their borders. The Germans treated the French very well. There were no records of rape or pillaging.
When the Germans went into Russia they encountered Jews that would sabotage and then blend in with the other populace. This is the reason Jews were put into camps in Poland. One thing for sure millions of Russians welcomed the Germans. At no time has a populace welcomed foreign soldiers on their soil. Of course the people who jojned the Waffen SS paid a heavy price after the war ended.

By: Tim Newman

Tim Newman — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:16:51 +0000

Alexei,

Thanks for your input, I stand corrected.

By: Alexei

Alexei — Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:18:29 +0000

Tim, I’m not going to get into this “Putin on rape” debate because I think that either Putin’s mind has been falling apart lately, or Putin intended to compromise the Israeli president in an incomprehensible KGB way. Either way, Putin’s words are hardly representative of the way the educated class think in Russia. What I’d rather facus on are the stereotypes in these sentences:

“…Russians as a people were systematically raped by the Golden Horde of Ghengis Khan to the effect that the Asiatic features they bequeathed are noticable in nearly all Russians. There is a Russian proverb: Scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar which acknowledges this fact.”

The features we can agree to describe as Asiatic that are common (but not to the point of being noticeable in all Russians, of course) in the Russian population, were most likely inherited from the autochtonous Ugro-Finnic population of Central Russia, whose distant descendants are the Mari and the Mordva. Whether the Mongols were more given to rape than other invaders, I am not sure; anyway, the Golden Horde (Genghis didn’t live to invade Russia BTW) ruled Russian lands indirectly, through Russian princes. The saying you mention is not Russian in origin and refers, first, to the supposedly Asiatic ways of the Russian aristocracy (implying that in the 18th century, after Peter I, Russian nobles were merely Tartars in European attire), and second, to the Mongol-Tatar ancestors of many preeminent Russian nobles. It was not supposed to apply to the peasants, who made up 80% of the country even in the early 20th century.

Yes, Russians have an odd sense of humor — almost as odd as the English — but modern Russian humor is not just Slavic: it has a strong Jewish component, which makes it more palatable.

By: Tatyana

Tatyana — Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:00:45 +0000

Hey, who gave you the right to tell me what’s ugly what’s not? Who gave you MF right to “cut some slack” to my grandmother? You’re not worthy of the sweat of her heels, you moralizing idiot.
And don’t you tell me what Jews think.

By: Intellectual Pariah

Intellectual Pariah — Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:59 +0000

You some good points, Tim. I can understand that desire for revenge by Nazis’ victims. And you know, if the Allies – eastern and western – had behaved scrupulously towards the Germans – no annexations, no expulsions, no destruction of their beautiful cities – I’d say something was wrong. There must be such a thing as a fair distribution of injustice.

That being said, inflicting atrocities on a helpless civilian population is almost as bad as it gets (though Hitler showed there is worse). It’s ugly for Tatyana in 2006 to express the sentiments her grandmother might have in 1945. I’ll cut her grandmother slack I won’t cut her. And I’ll still correct her distorted concepts. Revenge is revenge, it’s not “self-defence”. And what joins Hitler and Stalin is not some dubious notion of Hitler as a leftwinger (tell it to Fritz Thyssen) but the idea that people can be dealt with on the basis of their category (ethnicity, class), and not on the basis of each person’s responsibility for their own actions. But the same idea of collective guilt infects Tatyana’s thinking, at least as she’s expressed it here.

By: Tim Newman

Tim Newman — Wed, 25 Oct 2006 04:04:21 +0000

…whereas you think that killing the right group under the right conditions can actually be good.

I’m not sure she is saying this. She seems to be saying she doesn’t give a shit about the Germans in 1945 and they were merely reaping what they sowed: this is not the same as thinking it is good, or morally right.

In fact, revenge or indifference is IMO a far more natural response than addressing the issue on a moral basis. I would not consider the actions of the Russians in Germany to be moral or right, but damn if I was a Russian who had lived through the Nazi invasion I would have been straining every sinew just to feel indifference as opposed to cheering them on or, God forbid, joining in.

This is not a pretty side to human nature, but human nature it is and it far better to take the reality of human nature into account when examining situations both past and present than hoping a ravaged people will react in a moralistic manner when the tide eventually turns on their former conquerors.

By: Intellectual Pariah

Intellectual Pariah — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:35:03 +0000

So I get your nationality wrong, and that makes me a “moron”. OK.

The difference between you and me – in fact the difference between you and 99% of people, including every Jew I’ve known – is that we think deliberately, targeted killings of women, children, and other non-combantants are everywhere and always wrong, whereas you think that killing the right group under the right conditions can actually be good. That’s very select company you’re keeping.

By: Tatyana

Tatyana — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:35:58 +0000

Who is this clown?
I’m not “Russian by birth”, I’m Jewish by birth, moron.
I don’t get to know half of my family because Germans converted them into rotting dust in Belorussia and Ukraine.
I hope you choke on your moral superiority.

Tim, Stalin had no problem with Hitler because both regimes were 2 faces of same medal, both – totalitarian left societies. Still, before 1939 (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) the official line was anti-fascist (try to rent a wonderful film, ??? ???? ???? ??????), the plays and films and novels etc, in full hysteria of “purifying 1937-39″ were posing Nazis as mortal enemies. Of course, in fact, Stalin very much sympathised with Hitler, and felt crushed and betrayed when Germany crossed the border June22, 1941.
All Stalin’s conquests in per-War months, starting with the Finnish campaign, thru “liberation” of Baltic States, parts of Moldavia, Western Ukraine – were all done under “understanding” with Germans; the bastard was doing exactly same thing as Hitler.

I’m sure you know all this, if not – it’s worth to read about those 2-3 years; explains a lot.