More on Women at Work

Via Tim Almond, this Tweet:

There are a few comments which could be made here. Firstly, what’s the women’s body language like when they talk to the men, especially those they find attractive? How does it differ from when they are flirting? I’ve noticed if a pretty young woman wants something from a man she doesn’t know – information, help with something, a favour – she’ll turn up the charm to 11 and approach him in a way which (quite deliberately) mimics seduction. Most tone this down when they have some experience in a professional environment and get to know their colleagues (it generally only works on strangers), but these women are 18-22. I expect a good few of them have spent their entire lives smiling coyly, pouting, and twirling their hair in order to get something and haven’t yet learned this isn’t what you should do at a professional event. You can be damned sure they showed up wearing their most flattering clothes, makeup, jewellery, and shoes which made them look taller. They’ll tell you dressing up makes them feel good about themselves, which is only true if other women like how they look. The trouble is, if women think they look good then so will men, and that brings me onto my second point (which Tim Almond makes on Twitter).

Men are biologically hardwired to attempt to impress cute young women, and no amount of reeducation and social conditioning will eliminate this entirely. At the very least, it’s going to take time, i.e. maturity and focused efforts from both sexes to moderate their natural instincts to flirt and find a partner. Of course, the feminist approach is that women, even teenagers, are always highly professional and never flirt and it is men who need to radically change their behaviour and become monks. It’s all very well to say men and women shouldn’t flirt with one another in a professional environment, but when they are entering the workplace at the precise time their bodies are screaming at them to find a partner how can you possibly stop it? I don’t know what percentage of people meet their future partners at work but I know it’s substantial. As Tim Almond remarks, if a single woman meets a man she’s attracted to at work and he starts flirting, she’s not going to complain about unprofessionalism.

As I said in a recent post, paraphrasing Jordan Peterson who was engaging in a little reductio ad absurdum, if this really is the problem feminists are making it out to be, then perhaps segregated workplaces are the way to go; it’s either that or fight biology. Of course, the problem isn’t what feminists make it out to be. All that’s required is for common sense to be applied, e.g. by rooting out the genuine sex pests, banning employees from sleeping with their subordinates, and understanding that human nature, especially among youngsters, doesn’t stop because you’re wearing a lanyard with a badge on it.

Of course, it’s hard to apply common sense when a subset of women insist on being victims:

As women, we want to have it all — a career, a fulfilling social life, a satisfying sex life, a healthy family. And we are told that we can have it all if we just work hard enough, if we can just sustain the pressure long enough to become dazzling gems. Often, that means taking on extra responsibilities at home or at work, while sacrificing basic needs, wants, and important self-care practices.

In the United States, women are more likely to experience stress than men, and it’s largely a societal problem. Women are just expected to do more, and to do it without complaining.

Women are expected to land the great job, nag the ideal partner, maintain meaningful friendships, and keep a healthy body that adheres to narrow beauty standards.

As I’m fond of saying, one of the arguments against women working was they would not be able to cope with the stresses of the professional environment, and they are physiologically better suited to staying at home. Second-wave feminists vehemently opposed this, insisting women were mentally strong enough to cope with professional roles hitherto deemed only suitable for men, and they eventually got their way. Now here we are a generation or two later and modern feminists are complaining women’s lives are too stressful in part because of unreasonable work demands.

What is plainly obvious is that just as some men are unsuited to working in demanding professional roles, so are some women. But modern feminism insists all women have a right to demanding roles, and when the unsuitable suffer, the role must be changed rather than the person filling it. Of course, this doesn’t happen because there are enough capable women who don’t need the whole world dumbed down to make their lives easier, thus validating the concerns of the misogynistic dinosaurs of yesteryear. The result is less capable women becoming increasingly stressed, which is a bad thing but I’m struggling to see what any of this has to do with men:

Just think about how fathers are never guilted for focusing only on work and financial stability, while women are pressured to raise their families and provide for them financially.

Sorry, who puts pressure on women to financially provide for their families? It’s not conservative men, is it? Here we have radical feminists blaming the Patriarchy for the stress exerted on women by radical feminist policies.

If sensible professional women want to continue in their roles, their voices must prevail over those of feminists who are doing everything they can to set their cause back half a century or more. From what I can tell, they’re currently being drowned out.

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19 thoughts on “More on Women at Work

  1. What skills does an 18-22 yo women have exactly? Waltzing around trying to network etc with no skills to offer is only going to be read one way unless they really stand out.

    From a male perspective, isn’t this going to read ‘I went to a networking event, and spent the whole time brushing off know-nothing bimbos throwing themselves at me’.

  2. From a male perspective, isn’t this going to read ‘I went to a networking event, and spent the whole time brushing off know-nothing bimbos throwing themselves at me’.

    Pretty much, yes. Unless the guys were also 18-22 in which case it was basically a social event where people had more chance of bagging off than learning something.

  3. The other side of this is, how effectively do 18-22yo males network or seek mentoring at a ‘meetup’?

    I can’t imagine achieving professional advancement from that route. It does have an undercurrent of the casting couch and the only actual complaint is about the advances of Weinstein, rather than Pitt.

  4. Women are biologically predisposed to flirt. That’s Darwinism going back all the way to Lucy three million years ago. In ‘The Soul of the Ape’ Eugene Marais describes flirting behaviour practised by female baboons, to get their own way. Females that don’t flirt, don’t live long enough to pass on their genes. A male does not have to be high-status to be flirted with. He only has to be in a position to give the female something she wants. Back in the day, mail room clerks had considerably more interesting love lives than the CEO. I have had my brain very thoroughly fried by various women of all ages I’ve worked with. Today’s young men have it easier, I think, because the dress code for women in the workplace has tightened up a lot in the last twenty years.

  5. As women, we want to have it all — a career, a fulfilling social life, a satisfying sex life, a healthy family.

    Fair enough, you go girl!

    And we are told that we can have it all if we just work hard enough

    Yup, and..? No-one is lying to you. It is hard work. Many women opt to sacrifice career advancement and social life in order to focus on family. Sometimes they’d rather be out sipping prosecco, but they get on with it, because they have responsibilities.

    Many men sacrifice almost everything in order to have a career that enables them to provide for their family. Almost all of them would rather spend more time with their family, but they suck it up, because they have responsibilities.

    Life is hard. Grow the fuck up.

  6. David Moore,

    “The other side of this is, how effectively do 18-22yo males network or seek mentoring at a ‘meetup’?”

    Almost no-one networks at tech events. Ask any techie who has tried to look at them as a way to find clients. The people who go to them are the geekier end of the geeks. They aren’t people hiring people. They don’t have budgets. They don’t care about your career. They’re just interested in tech.

    The structure is generally that you have a few talks, then some beers. The people who get networking value are the people doing the talk. They stand up, explain how they made a thing happen and tend to get spoken to more in the bar. That’s the real networking. They (and their employer) get to look good, you get to learn some things.

    If you’re there as a non-speaker, no-one gives a crap about you and your skills. This is something that’s missed. People aren’t talking to 18-22 year old men about their skills and talking to 18-22 year old women about getting some. They don’t talk to the 18-22 year old men at all. They’re of no interest. The only reason they’re talking to an anonymous 18-22 year old woman of undefined skills is that they’d like to get some.

  7. From a male perspective, isn’t this going to read ‘I went to a networking event, and spent the whole time brushing off know-nothing bimbos throwing themselves at me’.

    What’s the definition of a nymphomaniac?
    Women your friends always meet.

  8. In the United States, women are more likely to experience stress than men

    Evidence, please.

    Women are just expected to do more, and to do it without complaining.

    Lol, keep that evidence coming, please. Haven’t seen any yet.

  9. I’ve no idea what a networking event is but if they’re like the telecoms conferences during the dotcom and mobile hype years and what’s going in with some academic conference now, then its nothing more than a scam and the people attending aren’t worth meeting anyway. I presented at a few telecoms conferences (my bosses thought they were good marketing) and those attending seemed to be professional attendees that were sent to keep them out of the way so they couldn’t do much damage to the organisation. (Something I also saw from the other side).

    I’m also at a loss to understand why anyone under, say, 25 could benefit. At that stage in development they should be sitting in the corner watching and listening and when they get given a bone, go off and do the job properly without whingeing or demanding and ego stroke.

    Anyway, who told women they could have it all? I’ll bet it wasn’t a man or if it was he was a pseudo-academic in a pretend subject. Any man who has succeeded, and their wives, and women who have succeeded will tell them that no, you can’t have it all and sacrifices have to be made. I wouldn’t say I have succeeded but I could afford to retire at 60, and that meant missing birthdays, wedding anniversaries and even nativity plays. It meant working long hours and sometimes not seeing my son from Sunday evening until Saturday morning. Those are some of the small prices that men pay.

  10. “Some men are unsuited to working in demanding professional roles. So are some women”. For “some” read “most”, but third wave feminism “explains” the failure of *any* woman by patriarchy. Only men can now *deserve* to fail.

    This is understandable. My able professional daughters say feminism is in a transitional phase. There’s a new situation compared to that of their mother’s generation, but the rules haven’t settled yet. It’s frustrating for all concerned, male and female, but there’s nothing sinister about it and it will pass.

    I think they’re a little too optimistic. There *are* sinister forces at play but they’re not intrinsic to feminism. They’re just the usual Marxist suspects seeking to generate some conflict to be resolved by their panacea of state violence, leading to powerful sinecures for the comfort of their useless, idle arses.

  11. ‘Tis often said the only ones who object to men flirting with them are the ones that don’t fancy the bloke.

    As for the rest… Hey, good looking, let’s do it! Put your management skills into my network, please.

  12. “I’m also at a loss to understand why anyone under, say, 25 could benefit.”

    Depends. The events I run are very education-focused. The old hands complain there’s nothing for them to do. If you aren’t benefitting, you’re going to the wrong event. There are a lot of duff things out there on the market run for profit rather than quality.

    “At that stage in development they should be sitting in the corner watching and listening and when they get given a bone, go off and do the job properly without whingeing or demanding and ego stroke.”

    This is tough now that every project seems to come in at no notice and is already beyond critical-path at the time we get the first inquiry. Due to bad planning on the client’s part/being pressured by the bean counters to delay an outsourcing decision until there is no other option, whatever the reason is. The time-honoured method of letting a newbie make a complete and total pig’s ear is no longer possible.

    We don’t employ snowflakes (they melt too quickly), but good junior people in my line of work do tend to be labile and need the occasional ego stroke.

  13. I think the Fast Show got this correct; https://youtu.be/Eye5KutA9eE

    As for networking events; speaking as someone who has to maintain a pipeline of work for myself, I can count on the fingers of the hands of a double-conviction Saudi thief the number of connections made over 15 years at networking events that have resulted in a paid gig. I don’t bother now unless the drinks are free and I know a couple of people I want to get drunk with.

  14. There are a lot of duff things out there on the market run for profit rather than quality.
    I second that in spades. You also get that as a speaker. Rafts of invites to dodgy events, often in the Middle East or Asia. And they start with an expectation that you’ll be so happy about the extra business you will get as a resulting of speaking that your company will, of course, cover all your expenses.

    We have got business as a result of speaking at an event – and it’s a continuing relationship. Under £1k per year, though so not worth it in that context.

    I also do a lot of professional mentoring – they don’t put events on for it. You get approached through a professional (or at least trade sector) body. You put your skills areas up, and limitations like location (I, for example, am not going to do a weekly evening mentoring meet-up in London, even if she’s gorgeous!) and then you get a preliminary match. Then you agree you are in the right area and then you start mentoring.

  15. If sensible professional women want to continue in their roles, their voices must prevail over those of feminists who are doing everything they can to set their cause back half a century or more. From what I can tell, they’re currently being drowned out

    To paraphrase Jordan Peterson (in a conversation with Camille Paglia; it’s on YouTube, sorry for no link), it’s going to take the not-crazy women to talk sense to the crazy ones. Except that the not-crazy ones aren’t doing that because they’re too busy getting on with it — living their lives, doing their jobs, meeting life on life’s terms.

  16. BiND,

    Most tech events are a waste of time and money and basically a way of companies with fat budgets to give staff a jolly. People spend like $1000+ flights + time off to go to events like Google I/O or Apple WWDC, which have all their sessions recorded.

    So, I don’t. I watch the sessions at home, saving thousands of dollars.

    The events I do are mostly “community” events. A group of developers create a user group. Cost is free. Beer is drunk and they’re useful but also light and relaxed.

  17. >”Just think about how fathers are never guilted for focusing only on work and financial stability, while women are pressured to raise their families and provide for them financially.”
    >
    >Sorry, who puts pressure on women to financially provide for their families? It’s not conservative men, is it? Here we have radical feminists blaming the Patriarchy for the stress exerted on women by radical feminist policies.

    Spot on. But also: “we are told that we can have it all if we just work hard enough”. Who says this? It’s not conservative men, is it? It’s feminist women again.

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